Read the PDF on the Commune and answer the following question in a detailed post. Before class begins on Friday, respond to AT LEAST 2 of your peers, engaging in debate and discussion. The more you engage, the more credit you will receive.
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Analyze the connection between the Paris Commune of 1871 and the French Revolutions of 1848 and 1871, using the PDF reading (as well as the textbook if necessary). Was the Commune the foretold Marxist Revolution from the Communist Manifesto? Why or why not? Should we consider the Commune a revolution of oppressed peoples or a civil war between upper and lower class in France?
In both the Paris Commune of 1871 and the French Revolutions of 1848, the people rebelled. Politically, the government was constantly changing and various rulers took power. This instability was one of the main causes for uprising. During the Commune and French Revolutions, even the military services disagreed with the government. Similarly, the working classes fought the government in both situations.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe that the Commune was a foretold Marxist Revolution from the "Communist Manifesto." Although there was social unrest and conflict between classes, France was not close to becoming communistic. The Commune was more of a revolution of oppressed peoples because they were fighting more against the government and state, not just the upper class. The French lower class wanted more control and the fact that France was being attacked by Germany made it easier for power to be taken.
I agree with you May that France did not become communist, but the main idea of "Communist Manifest" was that class conflicts would eventually create a synthesis. This was shown in the reading by the numerous of changes in the government. Eventually, the synthesis was when the Commune was represented by the the working class because they were the majority and it remained a working class system.
DeleteI agree with what you're saying, France was not headed in a Communist direction, however I agree with Chelsea that the main idea of the Communist Manifesto was that class conflict would create a cycle of events. But, I do see your point that the Commune was more of a revolution by people who were tired of being suppressed.
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DeleteI totally agree with you May that the government was constantly changing during this time and that instability was one of the main causes for uprising and for rebellions that the working classes form. I especially agree with you in the reason of disbelief in the Commune being a foretold Marxist Revolution. The Paris Commune was not becoming a "Communist Manifesto” or in any way communistic and the socialism of the Commune had its roots in Blanqui’s and Proudhon’s anarchism rather than in Marx’s concept of class conflict.
DeleteNeither the revolution of 1848 or the Paris Commune 1871 could be looked at as completely "successful" in terms of changing the government permanently. However, it did change what people thought in terms of politics and economics in France. The lower class could, for the time being, have more of a say in government and could let their opinions be heard. I think the Paris Commune was very similar to a "communist revolution" as it created a government that was heavily based on socialism. The Commune also attempted to create a French economy with socialist principles. The revolution was directly from the lower class, who attempted to create a more equal social situation in France. I think the Commune, which leaned towards communist ideas such as the lower and upper classes being equal, was a step towards the Communist Revolution from the Communist Manifesto.
ReplyDeleteTo add on to what you said about the lower class having the chance to have their opinions be heard, I think its because they were the majority of the population. Plus, having the majority of France be upset with the government, as proven in the past, is a big problem in keeping order in a nation. As the document said, although the lower class was a diverse group, they still had the same goal of a government to be equal for everyone.
DeleteI also think that these changes were very political. The Paris Commune was not entirely just the lower class, many people in the upper class were adjusting and allowing the change in France to happen. The idea of everyone being equal is common in many ideologies, including socialism, and the lower class seemed to be copying communist ideas.
DeleteI agree with your idea that both revolutions did not reformed the government permanently. It is possible to say Paris Commune was a second French Revolution, which means the conflict between working class and higher class/ government was not solved.
DeleteI also agree that Communist Revolution was influenced by the Commune, but however, I think the Commune had not thought about communism while they were active. They fought for their rights and better conditions, but not more or less than that.
I completely agree with what you are saying about how they were trying to apply more socialist principles, and that was one of the main things that jumped out at me from reading the document. I agree with Jeong though because the lower class seemed like they were fighting more for their rights rather than fighting for communism. However, they did want ultimate equality between classes, so I see your point. I just believe that they were not actively seeking a communist revolution, rather they just wanted better treatment.
DeleteGoing off what Jeong said,the revolutions in France that we have talked about so far this year have not had many lasting effects. The Paris Commune created what is called the "Third Republic" demonstrating that a republic had been tried without success, twice before. I also want to mention that the Paris Commune did result in many policies and ideas that come across as Communist or Socialist. Although these consequences can be seen, I believe that these are secondary effects of the primary cause of the Paris Commune which was to put an end to the governments oppression.
DeleteIn both time periods, there was class conflicts that eventually led to many changes in the government. In 1848, the classes were the liberals and the conservatives. In 1871, it as between the conservatives/monarchists and the republicans. With the class conflict during both times, it led to the outbreak of violence in which then the army refused to stop. This halt of the army's help made the government weak, while the people ruled - the working class and the lower class. I believe that the "Communist Manifesto" was the foretold for France because it followed Marx's belief in the thesis, antithesis, and the synthesis. The upper class and the lower class clashed, and since the working class, the lower class, was the majority, they gained a voice in the government. There was no direct oppression, it was that the lower class saw the government at a weak point, and they decided that it was the time to revolt. The upper and lower class.fought for a bigger representation in the governement
ReplyDeleteI agree that the lower and upper classes had conflicts, but the fact that the government oppressed the lower class led to this conflict. This was a revolution of the oppressed lower class because they wanted more equal rights and representation pertaining to work.
DeleteI think that part of the revolution had to do with the fact that the lower class wanted more rights, but the Paris Commune began because of something more complex and political than the 1848 revolution, which started from anger and the simple demands of equal treatment for all classes and a stable government. The Paris Commune was a switch in the French government towards socialism, and this revolution was based mostly on political change rather than social or economic.
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ReplyDeleteBoth Paris Commune and French Revolution took place in France. We could see that French Revolution deeply influenced French people; it gave them an idea of resisting and rebellion. Victory of the French Revolution made working class people to know that they could defeat upper class people and protect their rights. This causes the rise of Paris Commune, and also, it results the government reformation.
ReplyDeleteIt is hard to agree that this foretold about 'Communist Manifesto'. It is true that they have a connection; Communist Manifesto forewarned the fall of riches and rise of workers, and Commune actually rebelled against Bourgeoisie. However, issue between poor and rich were natural, which means it had no connection with Communist Manifesto at that time. Marxist Revolution might affected by the Commune, but the Commune had no issue with Communism.
I agree with you. Although one of the ideas of the reading was to see the connections between France and Communism, it is hard to view the conflicts in France as communistic. It is common for people, especially the lower class, to rebel and I see it as no more than people fighting for their rights.
DeleteJeong, I also agree with you. The common people were just fighting for a little equality, not a communist state. Obviously the lower class wants their voice heard and that can be seen as communist move, but the lower class never wanted any more than a few changes. They were not communist revolutionaries.
DeleteThe Paris Commune of 1871 and the French Revolution of 1848 were similar. They both had government changing goals the lower class didn't want to be repressed anymore. There were class conflicts and rebellions in both, which the army didn't put down, or didn't want to put down. It was a rich vs. poor people kind of deal each time but in both cases, the poor did not succeed in changing the government or much of anything in France.
ReplyDeleteThe Communist Manifesto ideology can be seen in the Commune of Paris, but it is hard to say that it was foretold. There are connections that can be seen, like Jeong said, but it is hard to think that the uneducated lower class had more motives than wanting to be equal. The steps taken by the lower class were leaning towards communism but I don't think that they actually wanted to be communists and have the government to be communist, they just wanted a little more equality and at least have their voice be heard. There was class conflict, like Marx said would happen, but the lower class most likely knew that there would never be full equality in France.
I see what you are saying, but in the document it said that the people on the Commune were in fact educated, maybe not as educated to others in comparison, but still educated. Despite that, I do think that you are right in saying they did not have an ulterior motive other than just protecting their rights and seeking more equality between the classes.
DeleteAs Bella said the people in the Commune were actually educated and knew the reasons for their revolution. I do not think they were going in fighting blind. Besides this, I think that you are right by saying that the Commune had little to no intention of creating a communistic society. They wanted better working conditions and more equality.
DeleteLooking at both the Paris Commune of 1871 and the French Revolution of 1848, there are a few similarities that jump out at me. In both situations the government was putting forth a lot of changes and the lower classes were being repressed and becoming more and more displeased. The unstable and narrow-minded government in both cases are what fueled the rebellions among the people. The lower class, which was the majority at the time, were constantly being ignored and not being given their proper rights, so they rebelled. It was a revolution of the people, the upper class vs. the lower class.
ReplyDeleteI do believe that the Commune was the foretold from the Communist Manifesto because its ideology revolved around class conflict and in this case there was a large conflict between the upper class and the lower class. The lower class saw that the government was weak at the time and they took advantage of that.
I agree with your idea that the lower class aimed the government when it was weakened. It was a great decision to rebel when the government was suffering because of the tough war, and it contributed Commune's victory. Also the class conflict was continued from a long time ago, which it seems natural that the idea of Communism was created.
DeleteI agree with almost all of what you said but I disagree that the Commune was the foretold Marxist Revolution from the Communist Manifesto. Yes, class conflict was a big issue, as it will always be in society, but at this time class conflict was secondary. The primary goal was rebel against the very oppressive government and the way capitalism had changed society and Paris as a whole.
DeleteI agree with you Bella that the government during this time period made many changes that did not please the lower classes and caused rebellions. However, I don’t agree with you that the Commune was the foretold from the Communist Manifesto because the Paris Commune was a nation of relatively independent, radically democratic enclaves, not a workers’ state. Also, the socialism of the Commune had its roots in Blanqui’s and Proudhon’s anarchism rather than in Marx’s concept of class conflict. I also don’t agree with you that it was just a revolution that had to do with the upper class vs. the lower class because in my opinion I see it as a revolution of oppressed people fighting against the government and state, not the upper class vs. the lower class.
DeleteMany connections can be made between the Paris Commune of 1871 and the French Revolution of 1848. Both the Paris Commune and the French Revolution of 1848 were started by members of the lower and working class in order to try and better working conditions, and extend certain rights. The February Revolution in 1848 established the principle of "the right to work" and the new government that was put in place created National Workshops for the unemployed. Very similarly to the Revolutions of 1848, the Paris Commune was very friendly towards workers. As stated in the reading, "Among its first acts was to allow trade unions and workers' collectives to reopen factories whose owners had fled the uprising.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe that the Paris Commune was the foretold Marxist Revolution but a campaign "to throw off the chains of authoritarianism or oppression appeared everywhere." The Paris commune was not creating a communist society and instead creating a society with more equality especially among the lower class. I also believe that the Paris Commune was not a civil war between the upper and lower class, but rather a revolution among the long oppressed lower class. I believe this because in the reading it says, "the Commune was a chiefly urban movement that revolted against the way capitalism had transformed society and the city of Paris itself. The element of class, for Gould, is secondary."
I agree that the Paris Commune was not the foretold Marxist revolution, since it failed miserably and Marx himself alluded to the fact that, had it been more successful, it may have saved itself (into the foretold Revolution).
DeleteBoth Engles and Marx regarded the Commune as the first "dictatorship of the proletariat", despite the fact that its council was made up of members of the lower-middle class, it did remain a system that was by and for the workers. Brought about and driven by the working class, it is in that was similar to the French Revolution of 1848. However I do not believe that the Paris Commune foretold by the Communist Manifesto. Indeed Marx states that the Commune might have saved itself (into the foretold Marxist revolution) had it taken a more sever stance against reactionaries, instituted conscription, etc. Yet Marx does glorify them for attempting to usher in a new, working class (communist) society. Drawing from these facts, I think its safe to say that the Paris Commune may well have been the foretold Maxist Revolution, however its lack of success lost its core support from Marx.
ReplyDeleteThe connection between the Paris Commune and the French Revolutions of 1848 were that the people were revolting against the government, president, the king, or whoever came to reign. During the Paris Commune, the reason why the Communards revolted against the Commune because they didn’t like the control that was imposed on them by the Government of National Defense. Also, the Communards wanted to get rid of authoritarianism and opression that appeared everywhere from the laws of association of the Paris Commune. This is what caused the revolt and when the Communards were going to be attacked by Adolphe Thiers’s National Guard, most of the National Guard members instead disobeyed Adolphe Thiers from suppressing the revolt and joined them in revolt The revolt ended with the Communards taking over the city in Montmartre. On the other hand, the French Revolutions of 1848 revolts were caused by the government in France which made banquets forbidden, did not make many necessary political changes for the middle class, and made a legislature dominated by moderates and conservatives. Also, when Napoleon III came to reign, the National Assembly refused to amend the constitution to allow the president to run for reelection which also causes revolt when Napoleon III tries to seize full power. The revolts in both the Paris Commune and the French Revolutions were caused by the government, president, the king, or whoever came to reign during those times. The revolt in the Paris Commune was successful than the revolts in the French Revolutions of 1848 because during the time of Paris Commune, the Paris Commune was dealing with the problems it had with Germany and the laws of association were at ease which weakened the government. This made the revolt during the Paris Commune successful than revolts during the French Revolutions when France wasn’t really dealing with other countries which made the government remain strong and it made easier to suppress revolts. The Paris Commune was not the foretold Marxist Revolution from the Communist Manifesto because it was a nation of relatively independent, radically democratic enclaves, not a workers’ state. Also, the socialism of the Commune had its roots in Blanqui’s and Proudhon’s anarchism rather than in Marx’s concept of class conflict. I would also consider the Paris Commune to be a revolution of oppressed peoples because they were fighting against the government and state, not really against the upper class in France.
ReplyDeleteJust to add a wrinkle to the discussion: the Paris Commune was put down violently in May 1871 (eight weeks after it was founded). The final stand was in the Père Lachaise cemetery, where Communards were made to dig their own graves before the army shot them into those graves. Those who were arrested rather than summarily executed without trial were often sentenced to permanent exile in French Polynesia to live among the uncivilized natives. What do you think about this repression? Is it an element of class conflict or a government putting down a political revolt?
ReplyDeleteI think it's a matter of a government putting down a political revolt, but the revolt in itself was a class conflict. Therefore we are talking about a upper-class government putting down a lower-class political revolt.
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ReplyDeleteThe connection between the Paris Commune and the French Revolutions of 1848 were that the people were revolting against the government, president, the king, or whoever came to reign. During the Paris Commune, the reason why the Communards revolted against the Commune is because they didn’t like the control that was imposed on them by the Government of National Defense. Also, the Communards wanted to get rid of authoritarianism and opression that appeared everywhere from the laws of association of the Paris Commune. This is what caused the revolt and when the Communards were going to be attacked by Adolphe Thiers’s National Guard, most of the National Guard members instead disobeyed Adolphe Thiers from suppressing the revolt and joined the Communards in revolt. The revolt ended with the Communards taking over the city in Montmartre. On the other hand, the French Revolutions of 1848 revolts were caused by the government in France which made banquets forbidden, did not make many necessary political changes for the middle class, and made a legislature dominated by moderates and conservatives. Also, when Napoleon III came to reign, the National Assembly refused to amend the constitution to allow the president to run for reelection which also caused revolt when Napoleon III tries to seize full power. The revolts in both the Paris Commune and the French Revolutions were caused by the government, president, the king, or whoever came to reign during those times. The revolt in the Paris Commune was more successful than the revolts in the French Revolutions of 1848 because during the time of Paris Commune, the Paris Commune was dealing with the problems it had with Germany and the laws of association were at ease which weakened the government. This made the revolt during the Paris Commune more successful than revolts during the French Revolutions when France wasn’t really dealing with other countries which made the government remain strong and it made easier to suppress revolts. The Paris Commune was not the foretold Marxist Revolution from the Communist Manifesto because it was a nation of relatively independent, radically democratic enclaves, not a workers’ state. Also, the socialism of the Commune had its roots in Blanqui’s and Proudhon’s anarchism rather than in Marx’s concept of class conflict. I would also consider the Paris Commune to be a revolution of oppressed peoples because they were fighting against the government and state, not really just the upper class in France.
ReplyDeleteBen and Matt, I agree with you both. The Paris commune was pretty obviously not the Marxist revolution that was foretold in the Communist Manifesto. Like Matt said, it was a complete fail by the lower class. Also Ben, The working class was not trying to turn the country communist, they just wanted some more rights and were fighting for equality.
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